Our guest this week on the Art of the Song Coffee Break is Germany-based singer/songwriter Paul Fogarty.
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Katie: I’m sitting here with Paul Fogarty, I hope I’m saying that correctly. I think I butchered it there. Paul, welcome, thank you so much for talking with me today. I really appreciate it.
Paul: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it as well.
Katie: So Paul is joining us, he’s a Standing ‘O’ member and he’s joining us actually all the way from Germany. And you were born in Australia and you ended up in Germany and it seems like you’ve gone back and forth between the two countries. Talk to me a little about that.
Paul: Yeah that’s true. My wife is German. We met actually a gig I was playing in Australia where I was living on the beach in Queensland. I was playing this gig one night. I guess it would have been December 2002 and a couple of beautiful women walked into the pub I was playing at and I thought to myself, “I think that’s my wife there.”
Katie: A true romantic there.
Paul: To cut a long story short, she is my wife now. We got to know each other and then she came back to Germany. We wrote to each other by email and stuff. We met quite a few times in person while she was in Australia backpacking around as Germans do. So then she suggested I come to Germany for a bit of a holiday which I did and then on that holiday we decided we should get married.
Katie: Well that’s a hell of a holiday there.
Paul: It was pretty quick. Then I just went back to Australia and took a couple of months to kind of sell everything and tie up all the loose ends and play some gigs and then I came over to Germany for a year and we live together basically in the upstairs part of her parents house for almost a year. During that time I tried to figure out if I could make a living doing music in Germany. Then we moved back to Australia the next year in early 2004 and then we bought a house. I just kept on gigging in Australia, playing all these sort of low-brow gigs and restaurant gigs where people don’t really listen that much in Australia. So I just did that for the next four years and then we had a daughter and then we decided that our daughter needs to get to know grandma and granddad in Germany because both my parents were long dead. So we sold our house and moved everything to Germany in 2009 I think it was.
Katie: How do you find the music scene in Australia versus Germany? I know that you were saying that you were playing a lot of sort of low-brow gigs in Australia. It seems like a lot of touring artists, especially from the U.S. from what I’ve heard they have a lot more success in Europe, so it seems like maybe there’s a similar comparison between Australia and Germany?
Paul: Yeah I think that’s true. I think the Australian scene is kind of like the American one. It’s such a big continent, it’s such a big country, and people are sort of scattered fairly thinly in Australia at least. If you want to go on tour, you’ll play Sydney and then Melbourne is about 1000 kilometers, I guess that’s what, 600 miles to the South. Then, if you want to play in Adelaide, it’s another day’s drive and then if you want to play in Perth that’s another two or three days drive. So touring around Australia just doesn’t make that much sense. But here in Germany, there are 85 million people in a country the same size as Montana.
Katie: Yeah, which is a pretty shocking comparison.
Paul: It’s pretty amazing. Even if I have a gig on the other side of Germany, it’s not that far. So that’s one of the big advantages here and the other advantage is just the culture. People want to find out what you have to say if you’re a singer/songwriter. If you’re just playing covers, they don’t really care, like anywhere, but there are a lot of venues where you can play your own songs and people will listen. A lot of them are quite small, but there are so many different levels that you can tour at and places you can play at. You might play to 30 people one night and then 200 people the next night. There are just so many venues and it’s a great way to make a living over here. I had to actually learn how to perform once we got to Germany in 2009 because I suddenly realized, ‘Man, everyone is really listening’.
Katie: So you can’t fuck around then. If people are really paying attention to what you have to say it makes a world of difference when you are playing to 30 people who are really listening.
Paul: Absolutely, they’re really leaning in. Plus, their English is their second or third language so they’re really struggling to listen as well. So they’re almost over-listening.
Katie: I was going to ask if the language barrier was really a factor there but that makes sense though if they’re really over-listening and if they’re really paying attention to what each word could mean. You have such a beautiful way of crafting a lyric and a meaningful way of crafting a lyric. So I feel like you don’t give fluff in your songs. In that case, it’s something where I’m sure you have a lot of fans that are really analyzing your lyrics.
Paul: Yeah, absolutely. It happens pretty much every gig, someone will come up and try to find out in a little bit more fine detail exactly what I meant in this line and that song and stuff. It emboldens me and it’s very encouraging that people listen that carefully where, in Australia, no one would listen that carefully. But here, it’s a cultural thing. They do want to understand the language but the culture runs really deep here. It’s just a beautiful thing. And they have so many different cultural events on and there’s so much history everywhere. Some of the places I play, the buildings are 500 years old. You’re just surrounded by all this history and culture pretty much everywhere you go.
Katie: Now you’ve written, it says on your profile, over 1200 songs which is really remarkable to me, especially with the level of care that I feel that you give your lyrics and your arrangement as well. How do you write? Do you write every day? To write that volume of lyrics, I know you’ve been at it for a long time, but it’s still remarkably impressive.
Paul: It’s kind of a mental illness really. It’s some kind of social disorder. I’ve given this a fair bit of thought because I have come across this before because people just flat out don’t believe I’ve written that many songs, right? And I’m like, “Yeah, whatever”. To me, writing, or words, or phrasing, it’s like a form of food to me, it’s like a form of nourishment that I get every day from choosing the right words to say or, maybe not the right words to say, but trying to. One of the things that are kind of strange about me is that I don’t have a sense of taste or smell. So I’m kind of a blank canvas when it comes to food and aroma.
Katie: That’s interesting. So you have to find a way to connect and experience in another way. It’s kind of like one of those things where one of your senses is muted and so another sense gets heightened.
Paul: That’s exactly right. But, you know, words have more taste to me than food does. With writing, I’ve always felt, every since I started when I was about 15, that every time I write something, I’m putting another block of pavement in the pathway to some kind of sense of freedom that lies in the far distant future. It’s a weird merry-go-round that I’m on and it’s all to do with words and literature and music and philosophy and authenticity and all of that stuff. It’s very three-dimensional all of this stuff. Like songs and poems, you just breathe them in as if you’re surrounded by them, it’s like oxygen, it’s like air. When I go to sleep at night, I always dream about songs and always dream about new songs. So they come into my head without me even consciously trying to create them. Then, when I wake up, I got to try to work out how to make them better. But it’s just a constant sort of flood of stuff.
Katie: Well, it seems like they’re a bit timeless to you too. If they’re kind of always around you and it’s just basically whenever you choose to pick them up. It’s like you’re constantly saturated in one way or another. I wonder, too, if that openness to these lyrics for you comes out of this constant employment and dedication to the words or if it’s always been there. You said that you had started writing when you were 15, did you start with lyrics or did you start with poetry? How did that begin for you?
Paul: As I remember it, what happened was, I spent about 8 or 9 years just drawing. I was an artist. I just drew pictures all day, every day, from age 6 to about 15 and then I started long distance running. I forget now why I did that. Just something about the rhythm of running just suddenly opened these floodgates and songs and poems just suddenly became a really critical part of my day-to-day life. I just thought that it happened to everybody. I just thought everyone was writing songs and poems every day. I never asked anybody. I just assumed it was a normal thing.
Katie: It just became so commonplace that it was kind of ridiculous to think that people didn’t do it as well.
Paul: Exactly, how could you resist it?
Katie: But you had mentioned in your profile too at some point that you had actually got kicked out of a music class in 8th grade, tell me the story behind this.
Paul: That was just luck really. When I was growing up, we were always singing. I remember myself always singing all the time. My daughter is now 9 and we have a foster child as well who is now 3 and they’re both singing all day every day. They sing themselves to sleep and stuff and that was me when I was that age. By the time I got to high school in 8th grade, my first day of music lessons arrived and I was just sort of absent-mindedly tapping out a rhythm with a couple of rulers that you measure stuff with on the desk, just keeping a beat, and the teacher asked me to stop. I didn’t realize I was doing it so I stopped and then a couple minutes later I was back at it again without realizing it and then she said, “Out! Get out of my class and don’t come back!” Sot that’s the only time I ever spent inside a room at the same time as a music teacher was those five minutes.
Katie: It seems like you’re very much like you’re going to forge your own path one way or another.
Paul: I guess so, yeah.
Katie: So then are you all self-taught in all the instruments you play? Because you play a lot of instruments.
Paul: Yeah, I just pick it up. It’s not that hard to play instruments. You just start off simple and build up slowly. There are only twelve notes, right? And there are only seven notes in a scale. If you can put in the mechanical practice time to get your fingers strong and hard and your flexibility and your timing ok, then you’ve done all the hard work that allows all this inspiration to come through and I think that’s the main thing for me is to treat each instrument as a way to be able to catch a song that’s coming through.
Katie: That’s really interesting. There was a poet, I forget which poet it was, when you were saying, “Be able to catch a song”, it seems like a common theme in songwriter, the poet was saying she always wrote poetry backwards because she would catch it by the tail and have to reel it back so she always wrote it backwards. It’s funny to me, it seems like a recurring theme with your songs. You’re just like, “Oh, I catch this song from the ether, but it’s always there.” It’s very interesting to me.
Paul: Yeah, a lot of my songs suck. They’re really no good.
Katie: I really appreciate your honesty there because I feel like it’s encouraging. We have a lot of beginning songwriters that are listening to this podcast and it’s encouraging to say, “It’s ok, your songs, a lot of them are going to suck” because you’ve written 1200 and you’ve recorded something like 55 or something like that I had read in one profile. Do you ever get discouraged with that?
Paul: No, never.
Katie: That’s great. You just keep at it.
Paul: A bit too brief an answer. I get discouraged by a lot of things but not by writing songs because every next moment is a new opportunity to come up with something cool. It’s sort of like shadowboxing. You dance around the ring and maybe you pretend to fight a bit and then you dance around and try to keep your guard up and try to be distracted and pretend like you’re not interested at all and then suddenly, bang! Something comes out. It’s a bit like that. For me, anyway.
Katie: Absolutely, you can’t wrangle it down too much. So, I’m curious because you had a career too as a journalist, how did that come about and how did that influence your songwriting?
Paul: I decided to study journalism because I failed to get into five other courses at universities. I didn’t really care what I did. I applied for teaching and recreational officer and various other more bogus things and journalism was my fifth or sixth pick and I figured it would be cool because I already loved to write songs and stories and poems and I figured this could be a way of getting paid to write. So that’s what I got into and then I went in and had a bit of a career in journalism and it certainly helped me to flesh out some of the redundancies in language and some of the things that people are unaware they’re doing when they’re writing. Unnecessary stuff. Journalism certainly helped me with that.
Katie: Was songwriting still a primary focus while you were pursuing your journalism path or was it just kind of put on the backburner?
Paul: It was never really a primary focus. It was just something that I had to do every day. Like brushing your teeth. I had to write songs and I had to play guitar every single day, otherwise I’d just be unbearable to be around. So I had lots of things that I wanted to do. I made up a plan when I was about 18 or 19 of all the things that I wanted to do before I died and so I had this plan. I wanted to be an athlete first while I was young, then I wanted to do journalism as a fully-fledged career, then I wanted to do music and art and then I wanted to, in my reclining years, write novels.
Katie: It seems like you’ve cycled through all of these incarnations of yourself and that’s part of being an artist. It seems like, very rarely, you’re just a songwriting or just a musician. It seems like you pull a lot of inspiration from other things that you’ve done with your life and other things that you want to do with your life as well.
Paul: That’s true, yeah. I’m a little bit insecure about what’s coming down the pike. I don’t want to leave writing my first bits of prose until I’m 65 or anything like that so I started, I actually wrote some full manuscripts in my late 20s and early 30s and I thought, “I’ll get that out of the way…”
Katie: “Just get this novel out of the way….”
Paul: But I’ve already written a million words in prose, so it’ll be a piece of cake. That’s kind of the bizarre way that I’ve thought about things.
Katie: Yeah, you prepped yourself before you actually dove into it. It seems like the same with pursuing songwriting and the journalism path. You said you were working out the kinks in language as well and then you can write better songs. I’m curious how else journalism influenced you because you tackle a lot of subjects in your writing, but you also tackle politics as well and it seems like that came from maybe journalism? Or had you always had that political bent?
Paul: No I always had that bent and that actually made it more difficult to get a job in journalism because, at the time, when I was becoming a journalist, all the media started to be owned by fewer and fewer corporations…
Katie: And this was in Australia?
Paul: In Australia, yeah. Nobody wanted a left-wing radical working on their newspaper or otherwise I might do a story about the newspaper itself.
Katie: So you hear that media outlets in the U.S.? It’s not always biased toward the left-wing radical.
Paul: I remember being in an editor’s office one day, I was doing a story for the wildlife and wilderness magazine and I did this story on this mining company that was going to destroy this pristine wilderness off the coast of Queensland and this mining company happened to be chaired by this dude who was employed by the state government as basically a spokesperson for tourism and all of this other stuff. It was really sort of an ugly scenario and they were going to give this mining company permission to just rip this wilderness apart and so I wrote up this story and showed it to my editor about the conflicts of interest and stuff and I knew I had all my facts right and my editor said to me, “It’s a great story, Paul, but we can’t run it because the state government has just given us such and such thousands of dollars to keep our doors open and we just can’t do this story because it’ll undermine the whole behind-the-scenes handshake detail so I said to him, “It’s ok, this makes it an even more interesting story now, right?” So, for me, the journalism didn’t stop outside the office door, it also included all the journalists and all the editors and all the people with vested interest in the newspaper itself and in the media and the people that they would play golf with and the people that they would support. It really is kind of an ugly many-headed beast when you think about it. I was really glad to get out of journalism in the end because it was driving me crazy and wasn’t any good for my health. My girlfriend at the time convinced me that I should just stop journalism and just do music. That was about 16 years ago. So I’ve just been doing music since then.
Katie: Did those stories come into your songwriting then as well?
Paul: No. Not specifically. They come to me in a different sort of fashion that doesn’t suit the songwriting form. I write a lot of songs about inequity but I don’t think I’ll ever write a song that’s about one particular incident or issues. It’s always one-step removed and sort of an over-arching view I think that I take and try to put things into perspective. No one is without blame so I think we’re all sort of responsible in a way for pretty much everything that goes on. I think that’s really the point that I’m trying to get across most of the time.
Katie: Interesting. Talk to me, you just posted on your Facebook page, while I was stalking you for research, this “White Boy 2017” and you had another version of “White Boy” before so talk to me about how this song came about.
Paul: Growing up in modern western society, in any given room at any given moment there are a lot of elephants in the room that are never talked about. One of the main ones is this idea of white civilization and the way the entire civilization has been built on, or at least helped to a great extent, with the subversion of other peoples. Just throughout history. I think a lot of empires the same sort of thing has gone on. So this song is a way of acknowledging that if you are a man and you are white, you do have a foot up on everyone else really just because of the way, coincidentally that our species is reaching forward. That includes that we have a step up on women. Women in a lot of places in the world still don’t have equal pay or equal rights and are talked about in ways that are not conducive to that happening anytime soon. People with skin that is other than white are similarly behind the eight ball. It’s difficult to imagine being on the same footing as someone who is not exactly from your cultural background, if you know what I mean. I think as white men, we should acknowledge that we have been given this ride basically.
Katie: Absolutely. And particularly pertinent now with what’s going on in the world politically, so I appreciate you addressing that at the moment. I think that’s really important to speak out now and I think a lot of people are beginning, more and more, to take on that bent or perspective.
Paul: It’s the truth. There are certain truths that are unavoidable and for me that’s one of them. The rise of Donald Trump, and various other people around the world, who take advantage of their privilege without acknowledging the contributions of their culture or of anybody else. They’ve done studies on people playing monopoly. They just get random people and put them in a room and they give half the people a little more money in their bank and they get two throws of the dice instead of one. Then the other half have less money and are only allowed one throw of the dice. What they’ve found is that the people who were given the advantage still feel, even though they know they are part of a study, they still feel at the end of the game that they won or did well because they were in fact superior. To me, that’s what it’s all about. You have to acknowledge if you’ve been given a foot up that there’s a certain responsibility that you have to help the less privileged amongst us. That’s something that every person in power really does know. They’re just afraid to acknowledge it lest it undermine what they’ve ostensibly gained. Is that too deep?
Katie: No, I think it’s wonderful. You seem to be a person who thinks very deeply about the world and it seems like, to me, you have always had this interest in exploring the human condition. Do you have a lot of influences from philosophy? Would you say, in general, that you have anyone in particular that’s really influenced you that way?
Paul: I don’t think so. To be honest, I sort of popped out of my mom this way.
Katie: “I popped out of my mom this way”. Sorry, that’s a wonderful image.
Paul: I can actually remember when I was exactly six years old, because I remember the Mexico City Olympic Games were on at that time and we had some friends coming over to visit our farm, to watch TV, and play cards and all that sort of stuff. To play poker. And my mother said to me, “Paul, you’ve got to clean up the yard so when our friends get here, everything is nice and tidy.” I remember saying to her, “Well, if they’re our friends, why do we need to put on a show?”
Katie: Well, that’s really interesting. So it seems like you’ve carried that perspective of questioning the world and questioning the way we relate to people in general.
Paul; Yeah. I don’t know where it came from but there’s a lot of bizarre stuff that happened to me as a kid and later on in life. It’s mysterious in a way. But I always had a knack of being able to see when things were not as they appeared to be.
Katie: Talk to me a little about those bizarre experiences that colored you.
Paul: It’s on a deeply spiritual level, a shamanistic kind of thing. I can remember at the age of five even talking to the heavens from our outside toilet. We had an outside toilet when I was a kid. We didn’t have an inside toilet till I was about 12, or wallpaper, or internal anything, till I was about 12. I can remember, I would often speak up to the heavens or to the sky and just talk to whoever was there. There was a definite sense not just that there was some being there but lots of personalities. I remembered coming from some other place. So that’s always informed everything that I do. This kind of weird and un-provable connection back to some other place and time that’s always been very real to me. A lot of the content of my dreams is about that stuff as well. It’s the sort of stuff you can’t bring up in polite conversation or at least if you do, there’s an immediate sort of penalty to pay. That’s where a lot of the creative urge and sensibility comes from. That sort of real experience for me as a young kid.
Katie: When you tell a story or write a song, and say you’re influenced by these personalities, do you feel like you’re writing in their voice or you’re kind of observing what their perspective is and writing in your voice?
Paul: It’s a mixture of those things. I can, very often, read something that I wrote and not remember writing it.
Paul: It’s a little bit freaky and, as I said, it’s the sort of thing I probably shouldn’t talk about.
Katie: I think it’s beautiful. If not here…this is the place to talk about it and we love talking about it, particularly because creativity and where that comes from seems to be a little bit unexplainable so it’s fascinating to hear where it comes from for people and where they get this mysterious inspiration. It’s funny, some people really feel like it’s this internal drive and that’s where they’re coming from and some people, like you it sounds like, are getting it from all these external sources. Sometimes people who pursue these creative paths, it sometimes seems like they’re just more open to listening to the world in some fashion or another.
Paul: All of that stuff is involved. I just don’t have an explanation for it. All I have is this knowledge of what I want to do with my life and there’s this 80 year arc and I know where the end point is and I know what I feel like I have to do. It’s just such an incredibly rich way to live. It’s really a fascinating blend of the material world, that would be actually playing instruments and playing concerts and stuff and then there’s this other world that’s informing it all and, in a way, pushing it.
Katie: It’s like worshipping when you’re writing in some way it sounds like and giving honor and respect to the blend and connection between the two worlds.
Paul: Yeah, exactly. I would hate to live my whole life having ignored these impulses and instincts. I was writing a little last night and I was thinking to myself there’s a reason why I could only hold down a normal job for two years. It’s because it kept me away from this other stuff. One of the things that I had to do to be a musician was to be able to do it in such a way that I was able to make a living while I was trying to explore it and bring it to full bloom as much as possible. So that’s really the balance in my life is trying to juggle having to make a living every month and trying to reach higher states in a way.
Katie: Absolutely. I think that’s the crux of the musician’s struggle too is being able to honor what you feel called to do and also be able to make enough money to live and support yourself to do it. I know a lot of people, obviously we work with the Standing ‘O’ and we try to help artists make a fair wage, how have you seen the music industry and the payouts change for you over the years of doing this?
Paul: For me, it just gets better all the time. I wasn’t doing music for a living in the 1980’s or ’90’s, it’s really been since 2000/2001 and I’ve been sort of juggling what I’m doing with other responsibilities like raising a child and now two children and being married and all that sort of stuff and not wanting to be away from home too much. I could be out playing two or three hundred gigs a year, but then I would never see my family so I just try to temper that, with one with the other. Then also, I’m trying to think about earning royalties later on in life like next year and the year after and the next decade. So I’m trying to get TV placements and movie placements and all that sort of thing happening as well.
Katie: You actually placed in a TV crime series in Germany, right?
Paul: Yeah, a couple actually. Three now, I think.
Katie: Congratulations. That seems like the way to go for a lot of people. It pays out pretty well I hear.
Paul: That’s kind of always what I wanted to do. I never thought of myself as a singer when I first started writing songs. I always figured someone else can sing these because I’m not a singer.
Katie: It’s so funny, I love your voice so it’s funny to me to hear that, but go ahead.
Paul: I was just god-awful. I used to listen back to some tapes and it sounded like someone being murdered. So I never thought about myself as a singer until about 18 months ago when these people, actually based in the US, in Nashville, started telling me that I should get serious about the singing thing.
Katie: You’re kidding me. 18 months? That’s crazy to me.
Paul: It’s true. I literally never thought about singing. I just would sing and now, since these guys have been highlighting the way that I sing, I’m much more conscious of it now and that’s something that I really enjoy now when I’m performing and seeing what I can do as a vocalist. It’s really an exciting new thing for me and it allows me to give every song more space and more dynamic whereas, beforehand, I was just kind of like a street musician, sort of half-yelling a lot of the time. So things are kind of happening in a way that I could have never anticipated. As far as making a living from music, is it getting better? For me, it’s all looking up. One of the reasons for that is being here in Europe where the concert audiences really are listening and they really do buy CDs and they really do have such a respect for songwriters and for artists and for musicians. The amount of money that I make is much more here for a small concert than it would be back in Australia. I do plan to go back to Australia, but everything has just kind of fallen into place here in a way here in Europe because of the way people think about culture. I always play my own songs. I occasionally do a cover song, and they’re incredibly patient and supportive and it’s just wild.
Katie: So your last album, Winds of Fortune, was in 2014, are you currently recording? Do you have plans to record another album soon?
Paul: What I’ve been doing the past 18 months or so, I’ve recorded about 90 cover songs for this project that’s already being funded by an investor and that’s being organized through Pipeline Entertainment Group in Nashville. We’re just trying to decide on which are the best songs and which ones to really record in an actual studio and to use those songs for various licensing opportunities and such and also to record another album of my songs. I’ve already sent them probably 100 demos of my songs as well. So they’re sitting on about 200 demos.
Katie: Oh my gosh. And with this new heightened exploration of your voice too. That’s really exciting. It’s a new chapter it sounds like.
Paul: It’s a totally new chapter for me and it’s taken me a while to get my head around it. I’m supposed to be writing now an idea for what a show of me doing cover songs would be like. How would you pitch that to people? I just have no idea how I’m going to write that.
Katie: Absolutely, especially since you’ve been so addicted to writing your own songs too and now having to get in the frame of mind of doing cover songs and making them your own and still feeling that transmission from the ether and the outside world. I can imagine that’s a completely different headspace.
Paul: It is a head fuck. That’s what it is. I live inside a head fuck. I’ll tell you what’s happened just recording all these cover songs is that it’s shown me that, first of all, I don’t really know the songs that well and that never bothered me before so why should it bother me now? I just sort of vaguely remember a lot of the songs and then I have a crack at them and apparently that’s what they like is my takes of the songs are pretty different. So that’s been cool. It’s also been cool to do these songs, really well known songs, and then it makes me compare my songs to those songs.
Katie: Do you still feel as connected to those cover songs that you’re doing as you do to your own songs?
Paul: No way.
Katie: It’s like getting to know them too. I’m sure it’s kind of a different angle too. Do you put yourself in that writer’s space or is it just like interpreting like coming to a friend versus…
Paul: Yeah, I just try to be casual and not worry about it and I think, “Well, they probably should have done this in that song”. I can’t even tell anyone that but that’s kind of what I’m thinking. But what it does is, I don’t know if it’s just through fatigue or repetition but it makes me see my songs as on the same level as these songs, right? So that’s been a real big benefit of doing this project the last 18 months. I ‘ve done so many of those songs and they just don’t stick up above what I’m doing.
Katie: It makes you love your songs more. It deepens your relationship with your own songs.
Paul: It’s kind of like that. I don’t know what it’s like, man. It’s just a weird but beautiful new perspective so I’m really thankful for that.
Katie: Well, Paul, we’re kind of time here but thank you, so much, but this was lovely talking to you and lovely hearing your perspective. Do you want to tell people where they can find you?
Paul: Yeah just at www.paulfogarty.com and I’ve got videos and bios and songs and albums and a blog or two. So check it out.
Katie: And Paul is also on the Standing ‘O’. Paul, thank you again so, so much.
Paul: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Really, really really really do.
Katie: Well, likewise.
To learn more about Paul and his music check out his Standing ‘O’ page.